Mateen Cleaves21 June 2024

How to Lead to Victory ft. Mateen Cleaves

2Frameworks

13Insights

Episode overview

Joseph Shalaby speaks with former Michigan State and NBA player Mateen Cleaves about translating a competitive athlete’s mindset into leadership development at United Wholesale Mortgage. Cleaves credits his parents, coaches, teammates, and basketball greats with teaching him confidence, preparation, accountability, and resilience. He argues that effective leaders connect personally, genuinely care about people, and learn what motivates each individual. Cleaves also describes ambitions to become a leading motivational speaker, spend more time with family, and help UWM avoid complacency.

Key ideas

Natural ability is insufficient without sustained work, close study, and a willingness to compete.
Parents and coaches build confidence by combining high accountability with genuine care.
Adversity creates character, and expecting to overcome it supports long-term success.
Leaders must connect with people and understand their personal motivations before offering effective guidance.
Cleaves applies the same early-arrival, hard-work, question-asking mindset to business that he used as a basketball rookie.
Chasing the feeling of meaningful success can provide more durable motivation than chasing money.
Servant leadership extends beyond formal coaching into personal check-ins, family-like support, and empowering others.
Continued success requires resisting complacency and deliberately challenging already successful leaders and organizations.

Transcript available · source text is retained privately and is not published

Frameworks in this episode

Leadership6 steps

The Care Factor

Connect first, learn what actually drives someone, then push them with that lever.

Read →

Peak Performance5 steps

The Rookie Mindset Reset

Every time you enter a new arena, reset to freshman habits: early, hard, curious.

Read →

People & resources mentioned

Attributed to the moment in the episode. Timestamps are approximate.

People · 22

Joseph ShalabyMentionswhat's up everybody welcome to another episode of coffees for closers today we're thrilled to bring on a profound guest
“what's up everybody welcome to another episode of coffees for closers today we're thrilled to bring on a profound guest”
▶ Watch at ~0:00approx.
Mateen CleavesMentionshe's a master of the game a college basketball icon and a driving force behind one of the most unforgettable NCA double championships
“join me in welcoming the one the only matin Cleaves”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
Denzel WashingtonMentionsmentioned
“it's like Denzel saying you know like I'm not done I'm not finished”
▶ Watch at ~5:00approx.
Larry BirdMentionsmentioned
“you know Larry Bird back then was the best shooter”
▶ Watch at ~8:30approx.
Isiah ThomasMentionsIsaiah Thomas another one you know he's a a great mentor to me to this day
“or point guards I looked at you know Isaiah Thomas Magic Johnson”
▶ Watch at ~9:00approx.
John StocktonMentionsmentioned
“then I look at John Stockton who's not as athletically gifted how is he having success”
▶ Watch at ~9:00approx.
LeBron JamesMentionsNBA player cited by the host as an example of maintaining frugal habits.
“you look at LeBron James who's a master at it right now in today's game he sees things before they happen”
▶ Watch at ~9:30approx.
Stephen CurryMentionsmentioned
“you in the basketball world you look at a Steph Curry well he didn't want for anything”
▶ Watch at ~13:30approx.
Kobe BryantMentionsmentioned
“Kobe Bryant dad playing in the NBA well they took advantage”
▶ Watch at ~13:30approx.
Matt IshbiaMentionsI'm blessed to be around Matt isia every day
“I'm blessed to be around Matt isia every day”
▶ Watch at ~17:00approx.
Gary LeeMentionsmy high school football coach Gary Le
“my high school football coach Gary Le”
▶ Watch at ~18:30approx.
Raymond JonesMentionshe passed away Raymond Jones He impacted a lot of kids from our area
“he passed away Raymond Jones He impacted a lot of kids from our area”
▶ Watch at ~18:30approx.
Tony HolidayMentionsmy high school coach Tony holiday
“my high school coach Tony holiday”
▶ Watch at ~18:30approx.
Isiah ThomasMentionsIsaiah Thomas another one you know he's a a great mentor to me to this day
“Isaiah Thomas another one you know he's a a great mentor to me to this day”
▶ Watch at ~19:00approx.
Deion SandersMentionsmentioned
“I think anyone who ever walked through Michigan you're friends with Deion Sanders”
▶ Watch at ~19:00approx.
Chris WebberMentionsmentioned
“knowing um Chris Weber and so I'm I'm blessed man I had a ton of them”
▶ Watch at ~19:30approx.
Tom IzzoMentionsTom ISO my coach you know at Michigan State
“Tom ISO my coach you know at Michigan State”
▶ Watch at ~19:30approx.
Jeff IshbiaMentionsI would have to talk about Jeff is Matt's dad
“I would have to talk about Jeff is Matt's dad he's great”
▶ Watch at ~20:30approx.
Melinda WilnerMentionsmentioned
“me and Melinda Wilner actually when we did our podcast we talked about Jeff's as a parent”
▶ Watch at ~21:00approx.
Eric ThomasMentionsmentioned
“I know Eric Thomas and I um I study I'm starting to study and and look at more motivational speakers around”
▶ Watch at ~34:00approx.
Tony RobbinsMentionsmentioned
“Tony Robbins when he came here and I think that that that that's one of my goals man”
▶ Watch at ~34:30approx.
Dan CampbellMentionsDan Campbell you know my favorite coach in NFL right now my Detroit Lions
“Dan Campbell you know my favorite coach in NFL right now my Detroit Lions”
▶ Watch at ~36:00approx.

Resources · 9

NCAA ChampionshipMentionsevent
“a driving force behind one of the most unforgettable NCA double championships ever won”
▶ Watch at ~0:00approx.
Coffeez for ClosersMentionspodcast · Joseph Shalaby
“what's up everybody welcome to another episode of coffees for closers”
▶ Watch at ~0:00approx.
United Wholesale MortgageMentionscompany
“now as one of the pillars of leadership culture at United Wholesale”
▶ Watch at ~0:00approx.
United Wholesale MortgageUsescompany
“once I you know sit in my truck and put out my video I come in come in to work”
▶ Watch at ~2:00approx.
Success TrackMentionscourse · United Wholesale Mortgage
“morning started because Success track it was some folks here from Success track”
▶ Watch at ~2:30approx.
National Basketball AssociationMentionscompany
“obviously people know you from the NBA”
▶ Watch at ~4:00approx.
Michigan State UniversityMentionsplace
“it goes back to when we played at Michigan State”
▶ Watch at ~5:30approx.
AmazonMentionscompany
“he's a leader at at uh Amazon he's doing good things”
▶ Watch at ~11:30approx.
Detroit LionsMentionscompany
“Dan Campbell you know my favorite coach in NFL right now my Detroit Lions”
▶ Watch at ~36:00approx.

Spot an error or want something removed? Request a correction or removal.

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Hot Take· 3

Hot Take03:00

Why Cleaves Refuses to Aggressively Grow His Personal Brand

Despite people repeatedly telling him to lean harder into content and self-promotion, Cleaves says he intentionally hasn't. He frames any brand growth as a means to a bigger platform for helping others, not a goal in itself.

People regularly tell him to 'do more' with his existing brand recognition from college and NBA basketball
He says growing the brand isn't for selfish reasons — it's only valuable if it gives him a bigger stage to help others
He gets satisfaction specifically from watching other people grow, not from personal visibility

“if it'll be just to help people, if they're growing my brand and give me a broader stage to help others then that's what I'm…”
Mateen Cleaves · 03:30

#personal-brand#motivation#philosophy

Hot Take15:00

Why Cleaves Refuses to Be His Kids' Friend

Cleaves explains his parenting stance: accountability over friendship, accepting that his kids will be angry with him at times because he believes it pays off later. He ties this directly back to how his own parents raised him.

He explicitly tells his kids he's 'not here to be your friend'
He accepts short-term anger from his kids as the cost of long-term accountability
He credits his own parents' high accountability standards as the model he's repeating

“I'm not here to be your friend, so there will be times where you get mad at me... but I don't care because down the…”
Mateen Cleaves · 15:00

#parenting#accountability

Hot Take28:00

Cleaves's Case for Chasing the Feeling of Success, Not Money

Cleaves argues that chasing money runs out of motivational power once you've hit a target level, whereas chasing the feeling of overcoming adversity and succeeding never does. He traces the feeling back to winning a childhood soccer tournament.

He tells people to stop chasing money because once you hit a certain level, the motivation runs dry
He frames tough moments as something to look forward to getting through, not avoid
He traces the root of this feeling back to winning a soccer tournament as a young kid and getting a popsicle and a medal

“don't chase money, stop chasing it, because if that's the case once you get money or you get to a certain level, then what is…”
Mateen Cleaves · 28:00

“we won a soccer tournament, they gave us a popsicle and a first place medal, and that felt so good, and ever since then that's…”
Mateen Cleaves · 29:00

#motivation#money-mindset#adversity

Explainer· 3

Explainer02:00

Why Cleaves Never Scripts His Monday Motivation Videos

Cleaves details his weekly practice of recording a motivational video from his truck before work, explaining that he never writes anything down beforehand. He believes the lack of a script is exactly why the content reads as authentic to his audience.

He records the video sitting in his truck before entering the UWM campus, roughly a 35-minute drive fueled by 90s hip-hop/R&B
No script — he says 'what comes to my heart' in the moment
He credits the unscripted format for why the videos land as authentic rather than performative
The habit started about two years prior after colleagues at Success Track encouraged him to post

“I'm not sitting up writing down what I'm going to say when I pull up in the parking lot, I just say what comes to…”
Mateen Cleaves · 02:30

#content#authenticity#morning-routine

Explainer08:30

How Cleaves Learned to 'Study' Basketball at Age 12 Instead of Just Watching It

Cleaves describes a specific shift around age 12 from watching games for highlights to studying the mechanics of why elite players like Jordan, Bird, and Stockton succeeded. He frames this as the moment that separated him from most kids his age.

Around age 12 he began watching for mechanism (why a player kept getting open, how someone scored against defenses built to stop them) rather than highlights
He cites Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, and John Stockton as players he specifically studied for their different edges
He now uses game replay/pause tools to teach the same reading skill to his own son
He connects this to a broader lesson he preaches: basketball success isn't just talent, it's reading the game before it happens

“I started to look at the game probably 12 years old with a different eye, not just looking for the highlights but looking to try…”
Mateen Cleaves · 09:00

#skill-development#basketball#learning

Explainer24:00

How Cleaves Built a Family-First Culture Across a 7,500-Person Campus

Cleaves explains how he creates genuine warmth at scale on UWM's large campus: reading faces, remembering personal details about people's lives, and deliberately not leading with his NBA celebrity status.

He deliberately avoided coming in as a 'celebrity' with his NBA background, framing his role instead as helping others become better leaders
He tracks personal details — significant others, likes/dislikes — about people across the campus
He describes being able to read someone's face and call them out when they say they're fine but clearly aren't

“I don't want to be perceived as your coach, no, I'm your family member, we're family”
Mateen Cleaves · 25:00

#culture#leadership#scale

Story· 3

Story00:30

Where Mateen Cleaves's 'If You're Trying to Win, Tap In' Catchphrase Came From

Cleaves explains the catchphrase wasn't planned — it came to him while sitting in his truck in the parking lot recording social media content. He reflects that it's now been picked up widely without him ever intending to engineer a viral line.

The phrase came spontaneously while recording a social post in his truck, about a year before the interview
He didn't script it or workshop it — he describes it as 'magic' that showed up while grinding
It's since become a widely repeated coin phrase associated with him

“it just came to me one day, I was talking in my car, I was sitting there, I was putting out some social media and…”
Mateen Cleaves · 01:00

#catchphrase#personal-brand#origin-story

Story07:00

How Being the Youngest of Five Athlete Siblings Built His Work Ethic

Cleaves traces his competitive drive back to growing up as the youngest of five siblings, all athletes, and having to fight just to keep up. He also credits watching his more talented but less disciplined brothers as a cautionary lesson about talent versus work ethic.

All four older siblings played varsity sports; he had to compete just to keep up
He says if he didn't work hard, he 'didn't even have a chance to compete' with his brothers
One brother he considered the most talented of them all was undone by being lazy — a lesson that talent alone isn't enough
His mother instilled early self-confidence when he told her at first grade he wanted to play in the NBA

“I had another brother who I thought was the most talented out of all of us but he was lazy... it's not just having talent,…”
Mateen Cleaves · 08:00

#childhood#work-ethic#family#basketball

Story31:30

How Mateen Cleaves Actually Unplugs (When He Does)

Asked when a famously nonstop guy actually relaxes, Cleaves admits he sometimes has to physically hide his phone from himself to spend uninterrupted time with his wife, otherwise a ringing opportunity will always pull him back to work.

On free weekends he'll watch college football or other sports and do nothing
He says he sometimes has to hide his phone because a business call could pull him back in
He frames it as choosing to 'just be a husband' during that time, including watching movies with his wife

“sometimes I got to hide my phone, you know, cuz it's constantly ringing, and if somebody calls with an opportunity for business you might jump…”
Mateen Cleaves · 32:00

#work-life-balance#relaxation

Q&A· 3

Q&A12:30

How Cleaves Instills His Own Grit in Kids Who Grew Up With More Than He Had

Asked how he passes on the hard-won grit of his own childhood to kids who have far more resources, Cleaves says he leans on storytelling about athletes who had everything and still worked, plus deliberately provoking his son's pride to push him to earn things himself.

He calls it a real challenge because his son's upbringing (family vacations, a room full of shoes) is nothing like his own
He tells stories of successful people who had resources and still worked — citing Steph Curry and Kobe Bryant as examples of kids of NBA players who 'took advantage of' their toolkit
He deliberately provokes his son ('oh you already got it all') to trigger a reaction that pushes him to earn his own scholarship rather than assume it will be handed to him

“if I see he worked hard but if I want to poke at him a little bit I say oh you just a spoiled kid...…”
Mateen Cleaves · 14:00

#parenting#grit#privilege

Q&A16:30

Cleaves's Three Biggest Sources of Inspiration Right Now

Asked who inspires him most, Cleaves names his parents for finding a way with fewer resources, his 14-year-old son for his current daily grind toward his own NBA goal, and UWM's Matt Ishbia for a work ethic Cleaves says makes it impossible to give half effort.

His parents, for 'finding a way' despite having fewer resources ('I don't find excuse, I find a way')
His 14-year-old son's daily grind toward his own goal of playing in the NBA
Matt Ishbia, whose relentless drive Cleaves says makes it impossible for him to coast

“there's no way in the world I can come here and give half effort when we see our leader going as hard as he is”
Mateen Cleaves · 17:30

#inspiration#mentorship#family

Q&A18:00

Cleaves's Top Mentors: Isaiah Thomas, Tom Izzo, and Jeff Ishbia

Cleaves runs through a long list of mentors before narrowing to his three most influential: Isaiah Thomas, his Michigan State coach Tom Izzo, and Jeff Ishbia, whom he consults on business and parenting. He specifically credits Jeff Ishbia for being an open book on how he raised his sons.

Isaiah Thomas is named as a long-time mentor he still consults today, and a major donor to Michigan State's academic center
Tom Izzo is credited for mentorship on 'life, not just basketball'
Jeff Ishbia (Matt Ishbia's father) is described as always answering business and parenting questions in depth
Cleaves says he specifically asks Jeff Ishbia about parenting given how his sons turned out

“every time I see him I have 10 questions for him, I'm always trying to get something from him and he's an open book every…”
Mateen Cleaves · 20:30

#mentorship#business#parenting

Takeaway· 1

Takeaway33:30

Cleaves's Three-Pronged Goal: Motivational Speaking, More Family Time, Keeping UWM Hungry

Asked for one personal, one family, and one business goal, Cleaves lays out becoming a top motivational speaker, carving out more real time with his wife and kids, and making sure UWM's leadership never gets stagnant despite continued winning.

Personal: become one of the top motivational speakers, citing Eric Thomas and Tony Robbins as reference points, while staying at UWM
Family: find more time for family vacations and time with his wife, who he says gets 'the short end of the stick' from his schedule
Business: keep UWM's leaders from getting stagnant despite ongoing success, quoting Dan Campbell's 'we ain't hard to find' line

“I think just just not getting stagnant, that's something that's one of my goals, not to let us get stagnant because it's easy to do…”
Mateen Cleaves · 35:30

#goal-setting#career#family