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10 July 2026

Wahoo's Founder on AI, Failure, and 38 Years of Grind

3Frameworks
10Insights

Episode overview

Joseph Shalaby speaks with Wahoo's co-founder Wing Lam about sustaining the restaurant brand after 38 years, expanding its event presence, and reviving the nostalgia of Thrifty Ice Cream. Lam describes Wahoo's early AI experiments in promotional video while arguing that restaurant automation must remain cost-effective and preserve hospitality. He also shares lessons about referrals, promoter risk, networking, hands-on leadership, and testing new businesses online before accepting heavy brick-and-mortar overhead.

Key ideas

  • Wahoo's longevity is sustained by multigenerational customer loyalty, recipe discipline, event partnerships, and Wing Lam's willingness to work directly in operations.
  • Wahoo's is testing AI-generated promotional videos because early campaigns produced stronger traffic, but it has not yet found economical in-store automation software.
  • AI and kiosks may reduce some cashier work, yet equipment expense, maintenance, accessibility, and customers' desire for human hospitality make a hybrid model more realistic.
  • Hands-on trades and creative work retain value because tacit knowledge, physical execution, sequencing, and original judgment remain difficult to automate.
  • Social media lets entrepreneurs validate products and services faster and with less overhead, though it can accelerate failure and reputational damage as quickly as success.
  • Lam advises verifying vendors through references, choosing partners who overdeliver, and securing promised benefits before an event removes negotiating leverage.
  • Networking accelerates execution and makes success worth celebrating with others; Lam argues that a share of a successful collaboration beats owning all of nothing.
  • Aspiring restaurateurs should master finance and administrative work, differentiate their story, build demand through catering or other low-overhead tests, and avoid premature long leases.

Transcript available · source text is retained privately and is not published

Frameworks in this episode

Strategy4 steps

Front-Load the Leverage

Get every promised deliverable locked in writing at signing, because your leverage disappears the moment you deliver your side.

Read →
Marketing6 steps

Marketing-First Restaurant Launch

Nobody fails on food — they fail because they can't get people through the door, so build the brand before you build the store.

Read →
Entrepreneurship5 steps

The Backchannel Reference Check

Vet any vendor's promised results by calling their past clients before you sign, not after.

Read →

People & resources mentioned

Attributed to the moment in the episode. Timestamps are approximate.

People · 6

  • MeredithMentionsI'm Meredith. Welcome to Coffee with Joe Shally.

    “I'm Meredith. Welcome to Coffee with Joe Shally.”

    ▶ Watch at ~0:00approx.
  • Rodney SacksMentionsmentioned

    “So I'm friends with Hilton and Rodney, the basically the majority owners of the company.”

    ▶ Watch at ~5:30approx.
  • Hilton SchlosbergMentionsmentioned

    “So I'm friends with Hilton and Rodney, the basically the majority owners of the company.”

    ▶ Watch at ~5:30approx.
  • DonnieMentionsmentioned

    “Then I get a phone call from Hilton, hey, my son-in-law Donnie is running the company.”

    ▶ Watch at ~6:00approx.
  • Joseph ShalabyMentionswhat's up everybody welcome to another episode of coffees for closers today we're thrilled to bring on a profound guest

    “Hey, Dom. I'm Joe Shelby. I'm your host here for the show.”

    ▶ Watch at ~58:30approx.
  • Matt MeddockMentionsmentioned

    “But what Matt's talent was, he didn't mention Matt was a promoter. That was his gift.”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:06:30approx.

Resources · 21

  • John Wayne AirportMentionsplace

    “we're super excited to be at the Orange County Airport.”

    ▶ Watch at ~3:00approx.
  • Monster EnergyUsescompany

    “I am the original retailer for Monster in the world. We did all the events with them and we still do quite a bit.”

    ▶ Watch at ~6:30approx.
  • Garden Grove Strawberry FestivalMentionsevent

    “we did an event, the strawberry festival a couple of weeks ago.”

    ▶ Watch at ~8:00approx.
  • Baskin-RobbinsMentionscompany

    “Now I'm with BaskinRobins, you know, 31 flavors. I'm sure there's hundred of flavors.”

    ▶ Watch at ~8:00approx.
  • Thrifty Ice CreamUsesproduct

    “we're going to try to help them expand into the stadiums and to the events and more important bring them into our stores.”

    ▶ Watch at ~11:00approx.
  • US Open Tennis ChampionshipsMentionsevent

    “right now I'm literally negotiating about possibly doing something at the US Open of tennis.”

    ▶ Watch at ~19:30approx.
  • FIFAMentionscompany

    “That would be cool if you were the number one choice for FIFA.”

    ▶ Watch at ~19:30approx.
  • K-SwissMentionscompany

    “partnering up with old and new brands like KSwiss”

    ▶ Watch at ~20:30approx.
  • Vans Warped TourMentionsevent

    “Warp Tours came came back last year. And so in July, we had the Warp Tour in Long Beach.”

    ▶ Watch at ~21:00approx.
  • Mercedes-BenzMentionscompany

    “if you're in Newport Beach and you can work on a Mercedes, a Porsche. That's precomputer chip. You name your price”

    ▶ Watch at ~21:30approx.
  • PorscheMentionscompany

    “if you're in Newport Beach and you can work on a Mercedes, a Porsche. That's precomputer chip. You name your price”

    ▶ Watch at ~21:30approx.
  • The JetsonsMentionstv show · Hanna-Barbera

    “you were like before the Jetsons were even talking about it.”

    ▶ Watch at ~25:30approx.
  • SupercutsUsescompany

    “Well, Super Cuts rolled out a monthly membership. I mean, I'm on a monthly membership for my car wash.”

    ▶ Watch at ~29:30approx.
  • RobloxUsessoftware · Roblox Corporation

    “Jen Alpha just wants to go to a place and play video games with her friends on Roblox virtually.”

    ▶ Watch at ~33:00approx.
  • Uber EatsUsessoftware · Uber Technologies

    “It's like they just they're going to order wahoos through Uber Eats.”

    ▶ Watch at ~33:30approx.
  • TikTokMentionssoftware · ByteDance

    “It went viral on Tik Tok. It went viral and everybody from every every college student from everywhere drives like 50 miles”

    ▶ Watch at ~40:30approx.
  • Good Morning AmericaMentionstv show · ABC News

    “last summer, a buddy of mine was going on the Good Morning America show in New York City”

    ▶ Watch at ~41:30approx.
  • SublimeMentionsother

    “He was the DJ for Sublime. And there he is on Good Morning National TV.”

    ▶ Watch at ~42:00approx.
  • Petco ParkMentionsplace

    “He just played Petco Park in front of 50,000 people. And there's our little sticker right there on the board.”

    ▶ Watch at ~42:00approx.
  • Coffeez for ClosersCoinedpodcast · Joseph Shalaby

    “Hey, Dom. I'm Joe Shelby. I'm your host here for the show.”

    ▶ Watch at ~58:30approx.
  • Sessions West Coast DeliMentionscompany · Matt Meddock

    “you can Google it. It's called Sessions S. Yeah. Matt.”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:06:00approx.

Spot an error or want something removed? Request a correction or removal.

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Hot Take· 2

Hot Take12:30

Why AI Currently Costs More Than the Human Labor It Replaces

Wing Lam pushes back on the assumption that AI automatically cuts labor costs. He describes operators getting shocked by their AI bills at month's end, discovering they spent tens of thousands of dollars to replace a single employee because every interaction with an AI system runs a metered clock.

  • Owners report being able to hire 20 people for what an AI system ends up costing.
  • One example: spending $80,000 to replace a single employee's role.
  • Every AI query is metered, so usage-based billing can outrun expectations fast.
  • Wahoo's has looked at AI-driven kiosks and augmented-reality ordering but hasn't deployed them, partly on cost.

“It's AI is costing more than human labor right now.”

Wing Lam · 12:30

“And I spent 80 grand to replace one person.”

Wing Lam · 13:00
#ai#labor costs#restaurant operations
Hot Take35:30

Wing Lam on Soft Coaching, Participation Trophies, and Toughening Kids Up

Wing Lam and the hosts trade stories about how youth sports coaching has softened compared to their own upbringing, and both argue that participation trophies and overprotective parenting are failing to prepare kids for real-world competition and adversity.

  • Wing recalls coaches physically and verbally toughening players up in ways that would get a coach fired or arrested today.
  • The host describes finding a rare old-school youth football coach and going to lengths to keep her son on his team.
  • Both agree today's coaches are softer partly because of parents who never played competitive sports themselves.
  • Wing argues most countries without manicured facilities produce tougher players through unstructured, survival-style play.
  • Both criticize participation trophies as failing to teach kids that winning and participation aren't the same thing.

“Now it's a pansy generation.”

Wing Lam · 37:00

“Participation trophies are the biggest joke ever.”

Host · 38:30
#parenting#youth sports#coaching#culture

Explainer· 3

Explainer21:30

Why Plumbers, Mechanics, and Electricians Are the Last Jobs AI Takes

Wing Lam argues the trades are becoming the most AI-resistant and highest-earning category of work, because skilled physical diagnosis (an old car's engine noise, a broken Harley) can't be automated by plugging in a computer. He connects this to rising trade prices and predicts humanoid robots, not software AI, are the real long-term threat to those jobs.

  • Older cars without computer chips require a mechanic who can diagnose by ear, not a diagnostic tool.
  • Wing describes his own experience relying on a trusted Harley mechanic who could diagnose issues in seconds.
  • Plumbers, electricians, and tradespeople are seeing prices rise because their work can't be ordered on the internet.
  • Wing believes food work is not far behind the trades in automation resistance because recipes still require human creativity.
  • He argues a robot can only be taught by someone who has already mastered the skill, so the underlying human expert stays employed.

“So I would say the trade you can't order on the internet. AI is not going to build it for you. You need a physical…”

Wing Lam · 24:00

“Because the robot can only learn from somebody that's already done it. They don't know what they don't know until you teach it.”

Wing Lam · 24:30
#ai#trades#automation#labor market
Explainer33:00

Why Gen Alpha's Parasocial Habits Worry a 38-Year Restaurant Veteran

Wing Lam and the hosts discuss how younger generations increasingly form parasocial relationships with online personalities instead of real-world community connections, and how that shows up in restaurants as customers ordering through apps with zero human interaction. Wing predicts this generation will eventually be forced to develop soft skills once they enter the workforce and have to deal with human bosses and conflict.

  • Younger customers increasingly order through apps like Uber Eats with no interest in in-person interaction.
  • The hosts describe Gen Alpha's preference for parasocial relationships with online figures over real-world regulars culture.
  • Wing argues this generation hasn't learned to handle conflict because screens never yell back.
  • He predicts they'll need to learn soft skills quickly once they have a human boss in the real world.

“They don't know how to deal with conflict because as soon as somebody yells at them, they're like, "Oh my god, I got to get…”

Wing Lam · 34:30

“As soon as they figured out that the majority of the people that control this world still is older than them, they better learn those…”

Wing Lam · 35:00
#gen z#gen alpha#soft skills#customer behavior
Explainer1:12:00

The Rare Wild-Caught Fish That Actually Differentiates Wahoo's Tacos

During a blind taco taste test against two competitors, Wing Lam correctly identified his own tacos and explains that Wahoo's core differentiator is literal: they are reportedly the only fish taco chain using wahoo fish, a hard-to-catch, wild-caught species sourced from Fiji, and the largest buyer of it in the country.

  • Wing correctly identified his own taco in a blind taste test against Rubio's and a coastal grill competitor.
  • Wahoo's claims to be the only fish taco chain in the country, possibly the world, using wahoo fish.
  • The fish is wild-caught, hard to find, and sourced from Fiji rather than Hawaii.
  • Wahoo's describes itself as the largest buyer of wahoo fish in America.

“The fact that we use Wahoo. No other fish taco place in America, if not in the world, uses Wahoo.”

Wing Lam · 1:13:00

“We're the largest buyer of Wahoo in America. That's the difference.”

Wing Lam · 1:13:00
#wahoos#product differentiation#sourcing#seafood

Story· 3

Story05:30

How Wahoo's Founder Ended Up Helping Revive Thrifty's Ice Cream

Wing Lam recounts how Thrifty's ice cream, the nostalgic drugstore brand he grew up on, was bought out of bankruptcy by the family behind Monster Energy and quietly kept its original El Monte factory running long after the retail stores shut down. Wing, a longtime friend of the new owners and Monster's original retailer, is now working with them to bring Thrifty's into events, stadiums, and eventually into Wahoo's own locations.

  • Thrifty's stores closed, but the original ice cream factory in El Monte never stopped producing.
  • The Monster Energy founders bought Thrifty's out of bankruptcy for cash, no financing involved.
  • Thrifty's already supplies ice cream to many restaurants under other names, including green tea ice cream at Asian restaurants.
  • There are roughly 90 flavors total versus the dozen consumer-facing ones people remember.
  • Wahoo's is testing an ice-cream counter model in two locations using a customer-triggered bell instead of full-time staffing.

“The ice cream factory never stopped making ice cream. So it's the same place in since the 70s in El Monte.”

Wing Lam · 06:00

“So when you're getting a paleta, 90% of the time that vanilla will be from them.”

Wing Lam · 10:30
#thriftys#ice cream#brand revival#nostalgia
Story13:00

The AI Cartoon Version of Wing That Boosted Response Rates 5x

Wahoo's tested an AI-generated cartoon version of Wing Lam against a normal in-person promotional video. The AI version outperformed because audiences found it funnier and more shareable, pushing response on a direct-mail-style promotion from a typical 1-2% up toward 10%.

  • Wahoo's tested a real video of Wing versus an AI-generated cartoon version for the same promotion.
  • Audiences found the AI cartoon version cuter and more shareable.
  • Response rate jumped from a typical 1-2% to close to 10%.
  • Marketing is currently the only area where Wahoo's has meaningfully deployed AI.

“It turns out that the AI version people think it's funnier, it's cute because people love cartoons.”

Wing Lam · 13:30

“So in a typical direct mail piece that one or two percent we ended up getting close to 10%.”

Wing Lam · 14:00
#ai#marketing#video content#wahoos
Story40:00

The Viral Newport Donut Shop That Proves Virality Beats Quality

The hosts and Wing Lam discuss a Newport Beach donut shop that went viral on TikTok for a simple microwaved ham-and-cheese pastry, drawing lines around the block from college students driving 50 miles despite the product being, in their words, not very good. They use it as proof that social virality can build a business independent of product quality.

  • The shop's ham-and-cheese doughnut is microwaved, not toasted, and described by the hosts as unremarkable.
  • The item went viral on TikTok, drawing customers from up to 50 miles away.
  • The shop has a daily line wrapped around the building purely from social proof and novelty.
  • Wing frames social media as the cheapest, fastest word-of-mouth channel available, for better or worse.

“It went viral and everybody from every college student from everywhere drives like 50 miles to get this ham and cheese doughnut that's thrown in…”

Host · 40:30

“Social media is the most cost effective word of mouth out there because it doesn't cost you much... it's also much faster to die.”

Wing Lam · 40:00
#virality#tiktok#social media marketing#word of mouth

Tool· 1

Tool42:30

Wing Lam's Marketing Metric: Track Eyeballs, Not Conversions

Wing Lam explains that instead of tracking marketing performance through conversion metrics, he measures total daily views across his content, averaging 1 to 1.5 million eyeballs a day, and trusts that a consistent conversion rate follows from consistent reach.

  • Wing targets roughly 1 to 1.5 million views a day as his core marketing barometer.
  • He deliberately does not track how many viewers convert into loans, sign-ups, or purchases.
  • His reasoning is that hitting a consistent reach number produces a predictable downstream conversion rate without needing to measure it directly.

“I don't look at like conversions like nobody everybody else. I just look at eyeballs. How many eyeballs am I generating a day?”

Wing Lam · 42:30

“As long as you're getting that 1.2 to every day you're going to get X on the back side. It is what it is.”

Wing Lam · 43:00
#marketing metrics#reach#content strategy

Takeaway· 1

Takeaway56:00

The Fastest Way to Find Your Path: Eliminate What You Don't Want First

Asked for his best advice to a young entrepreneur, Wing Lam suggests that instead of trying to identify a life passion directly, people should quickly eliminate the things they know they don't want to do, narrowing down until what's left is worth exploring for whether it can also become a living.

  • Start by ruling out activities and paths you already know you dislike, rather than searching for the "right" one directly.
  • Elimination narrows the field faster than trying to identify a passion from scratch.
  • Once something you genuinely like remains, the next question becomes whether it can realistically become a livelihood.
  • The payoff is finding work that doesn't feel like work because it matches what's left after elimination.

“You may not know what you want to do for the rest of your life, but start eliminating the ones that you don't want to…”

Wing Lam · 56:00

“I like this. Is there a possibility that can make a living doing this? And that's where you're going to find the happiness.”

Wing Lam · 56:30
#career advice#entrepreneurship#decision making