Perkins says stability is the right choice for most people and entrepreneurship should not be treated as a universal aspiration. For someone on the boundary, careers such as loan officer or real-estate agent can combine corporate support with room to experiment, innovate, fail, and succeed.

Most people prefer and benefit from stability
Not everyone is built for entrepreneurship
Some careers offer a bridge between employment and autonomy
Self-belief matters because doubt can create a destructive internal story

“I do think that most people in this world are not built for The Entrepreneur Space and that's okay”
Jason Perkins · 12:30

“entrepreneurship uh can be um it's it's a rocky road”
Jason Perkins · 13:30

#entrepreneurship#career choice#risk

Hot Take· 1

Hot Take09:00

The Employer Does Not Own a Loan Officer's Client Relationship

Perkins challenged the traditional idea that the mortgage company owns all customer attention and the individual loan officer has no personal brand. He argues that trust sits with the person who built the relationship, creating the opening for tools that preserve authentic, long-term communication.

Traditional mortgage marketing centered the employer's brand
Perkins believed clients chose the individual for knowledge and relationship
Owning the relationship requires a personal voice
The disagreement helped shape Bonzo's founding thesis

“that relationship is owned with me they like me they work with me because of me and who I am”
Jason Perkins · 10:00

“these are your customers for life”
Joe Shalaby · 11:00

#personal brand#customer relationships#mortgage

Explainer· 3

Explainer23:00

Mortgage CRMs Hold More Opportunity Data Than Teams Actually Use

Perkins says mortgage businesses collect rich client information but usually act on only basic contact and closing fields. He expects AI-assisted search to infer timely opportunities from relevant life-event data, such as a growing family whose housing needs may change, rather than relying only on rate changes and refinance margins.

Mortgage teams collect more customer data than they use
Basic fields dominate current follow-up
Life events can indicate future housing needs
AI could surface opportunities for more relevant nurturing
Perkins presents this as a developing opportunity, not a proven outcome

“so much data is collected on their people right on the prospects and the clients um but majority of us only use you know the…”
Jason Perkins · 23:30

“we can use AI to determine that data to to to nurture up and and tune up opportunities based on all of the relevant data…”
Jason Perkins · 24:30

#crm#ai#customer data#mortgage

Explainer27:00

AI Mortgage Conversations Still Need Disclosure and Human Trust

Perkins expects AI chat systems to handle increasingly complete mortgage dialogues, but he also anticipates major regulation and required disclosure that the customer is not speaking with a human. The unresolved product challenge is blending automation with the authentic personal relationship on which mortgage trust depends.

Existing chatbots can already connect to Bonzo through Zapier
Perkins expects regulation around AI conversations to grow
Customers may need clear disclosure that an AI is speaking
Automation does not erase the value of a personal relationship

“regulation in AI is going to change dramatically we're in the wild wild west of ai ai right now”
Jason Perkins · 27:30

“how do you blend authenticity because that's what people are going to want”
Jason Perkins · 28:30

#ai regulation#authenticity#chatbots#mortgage

Explainer52:30

Why Perkins Tries to Replace Rumination With Goal Focus

Perkins describes rumination as repeatedly thinking about a negative idea until it grows stronger and becomes harder to escape. He contrasts it with keeping positive goals at the front of the mind, which he says helped him manage anxiety and focus on where he wanted to go.

Repeated attention can amplify a negative thought
Young adults face pressure around career, money, and relationships
Perkins uses positive goals to redirect attention
He credits earlier advice about rumination with helping him

“when there is something negative in our minds we constantly think about it but what happens when we do that it actually makes it worse…”
Jason Perkins · 52:30

“rumination piece we you know it it can breed a very uh unfortunate thought process that's a cycle that it's very difficult to get out…”
Jason Perkins · 54:00

#rumination#anxiety#goals#mindset

Story· 2

Story05:30

How Curiosity Led Perkins From Odd Jobs to Mortgage Tech

Perkins says pressure to choose a lifelong path early created anxiety, so he instead followed curiosity through travel and varied jobs. Training realtors and loan officers in digital branding exposed an antiquated industry and eventually led him from loan origination to the idea for Bonzo.

He rejects the expectation that teenagers must have a career figured out
Global travel and varied work helped him discover what attracted him
Digital-brand consulting revealed a gap in mortgage and real-estate practice
Repeated failed companies supplied lessons for the eventual CRM business

“I'm a big believer in driving curiosity in life what is attracted to you what are you attracted to”
Jason Perkins · 06:00

“entrepreneurship is H is is built around failure I mean I failed and in my entrepreneur Journey multiple times”
Jason Perkins · 08:30

#career#curiosity#mortgage#entrepreneurship

Story32:00

A Six-Year-Old's Fear of Missing the Goal

Perkins noticed his daughter falling while approaching the ball in soccer and learned she was afraid of taking a shot and missing. They discussed failure as the price of having an opportunity to win; the following week she stayed on her feet and scored, illustrating what he calls life's micro nudges.

His daughter was avoiding the moment where success or failure became possible
A conversation exposed fear of failure beneath the physical behavior
Perkins normalized repeated failure in adult life
Children also learn by watching how parents handle stress and relationships

“she was afraid of taking the ball and getting it down to the goal and missing the goal”
Jason Perkins · 33:00

“life is about micro nudges”
Jason Perkins · 35:00

#parenting#failure#confidence#children

Q&A· 2

Q&A55:30

College Matters for Some Careers, Not Automatically for All

Asked whether college remains important in the AI era, Perkins answers that its value depends on the intended career. Degrees remain necessary for fields such as nursing, medicine, and law, while aspiring marketers, communicators, and entrepreneurs may gain more from real work, mentorship, and networking.

The answer depends on the career outcome
Some regulated professions require a degree
University can provide valuable networking
Perkins personally preferred practical work and skill-building
He expects institutional education to change over the next decade

“it's all relative to what you want to do”
Jason Perkins · 56:00

“depending on what career you want to go into of course you need a degree if you want to be a nurse or a doctor…”
Jason Perkins · 57:00

#college#education#career#ai

Q&A1:00:30

An Ironman, Better Fatherhood, and Bonzo's Industry Ambition

Perkins names one goal in each of three domains. He wants to complete a half Ironman in Spain, improve incrementally as a father and husband, and continue combining Bonzo and MMI's teams and technology in pursuit of a large mortgage-tech ambition.

A half Ironman in Spain has remained on his list for about a decade
Writing the goal in his journal keeps it visible
His family goal is daily incremental improvement
His Bonzo goal centers on the post-acquisition technology and team combination

“there's a half Iron Man in Spain um that I would love to do at someday”
Jason Perkins · 1:01:30

“every single day I try to get 1% better micro habits to get better to be a better dad”
Jason Perkins · 1:02:00

#goals#family#fitness#bonzo

Takeaway· 4

Takeaway18:30

An AI Label Is Worthless Unless the Feature Removes Real Friction

Perkins warns that companies can attach an AI label to almost anything without changing customer outcomes. Bonzo's stated test is whether AI improves interactions, transparency, database understanding, or a specific workflow barrier rather than merely supporting a marketing claim.

AI has become a broad and easily abused label
A useful feature must connect to the system's actual workflow
The team selected video because camera discomfort blocks known user behavior
Utility should precede AI positioning

“there's a lot of fluff out there that everybody needs to pay attention to when it comes down to Ai and Technology”
Jason Perkins · 19:00

“what we look at and focus on is how can AI help uh the bonso members”
Jason Perkins · 19:30

#ai#product strategy#mortgage tech

Takeaway43:30

Complementary Co-Founders Can Carry Different Halves of Leadership

Shalaby describes his long partnership with Sam as a yin-yang relationship: he leads visible branding work while Sam handles operations, compliance, regulators, and other areas Shalaby avoids. He argues that a large organization needs someone capable of doing the work the other founder never wants to do.

The partners have known each other since age 14
Their skills and preferred responsibilities differ
Clear complementarity reduces the need for both to inhabit every function
Shalaby favors collaboration over building alone

“it's a true yin-yang relationship”
Joe Shalaby · 45:00

“someone should have uh someone doing what they never want to do”
Joe Shalaby · 46:00

#cofounders#leadership#collaboration

Takeaway49:30

Perkins Builds His Hobbies Around Being Present With Family

In a busy chapter of company building, Perkins says his limited free time goes primarily to his wife and daughters. His own experience of a father who was often away creates anxiety about being present, and he joins his daughter for Ninja Warrior training twice a week.

Family is his main use of free time
He wants to be present during his children's fast-changing early years
His childhood experience influences the priority
Shared Ninja Warrior sessions turn his daughter's interest into time together

“family is my biggest thing right family is my hobby”
Jason Perkins · 49:30

“family comes first so my hobbies are really buil built around um being for being around my family”
Jason Perkins · 50:30

#family#fatherhood#work life

Takeaway59:00

Being Told He Was Not Good Enough Hurt—and Helped

Perkins says one of the most painful messages he received was that he was not ready or good enough. Although it injured his ego, he believes the correction helped him see his actual level and the distance he still needed to travel, rather than remaining trapped in an inflated self-image.

Criticism from someone admired can create a severe ego hit
Perkins believes he needed the correction
Ego can support boldness but can also conceal reality
Accurate self-location enables growth

“when someone that uh you look up to uh or admire tells you that you're not ready and you're not good enough it's an ego…”
Jason Perkins · 59:30

“some people stay at a very high ego level and they don't want to believe the reality of where they actually are and they don't…”
Jason Perkins · 1:00:00

#ego#feedback#growth#self-awareness

Frameworks in this episode

Life in Beta

Low-Capital Service Business Filter

Organic Culture Attraction

Patient Urgency

Phone-Free Morning Reset

Risk-Repetition Resilience

Insights & moments

⚡Myth Buster· 1

Entrepreneurship Is Not the Right Default for Everyone

◆Hot Take· 1